Wednesday, March 01, 2006
When when is when when was (or will be)... Part 1
Conceptually, this is a toughy. Time always is.
There are several uses of the word 'when', but in essence, they all relate to some time reference. Einstein famously said "time is relative' (or at least something pretty close to it) and how many of us understand relative time in a gravitationally constant universe? Thought so. Me neither.
Well, it'll be no surprise that 時, one of the nouns used to indicate time in Japanese, requres an understanding of 'the perceived sequence of events in relative time frame'. WTF?
To be fair, some of this is easy. Kind of. Take these sentences:
1. When I was a child...
2 When I go to Japan...
3 When I read that book...
4. When I win the lottery...
If I ask, which are past tense and which are non-past, I'm sure you'll work it out. I'm sure you've even already menatally worked out which conjugations to do. Hands up who got (1) = past, (2) = non-past, (3) = past and (4) = non-past? Hold that thought for a moment whilst we expand this a little.
2. When I go to Japan I want to eat basashi.
I think you'll agree that the perceived sequence of events is (A) go to Japan (B) eat basashi. The action A has to be completed before action B can occur. In this timeframe, A occurs in the past relative to B. So let's try to translate this puppy.
Jenglish: [Japan][went][when][basashi][eat + want]
日本語： 日本に行った時、馬刺しを食べたい。
Notice how 'to go' is in the past tense? Because it happens before the second bit. Contrast with:
日本語： 日本に行った時、馬刺しを食べた。
Jenglish: [Japan][go][when][basashi][ate]
English: When I went to Japan I ate basashi.
So, if A occurs before B, A is plain past. If events are in the past, B is past tense; if events are in the future, B is non-past tense. Got it? That's the easy bit.
Things go a bit Pete Tong from here on in. But that's another post.
matane.
RULE 1: If the absolute timeframe (when they occur in relation to now) of events is in the past, both A and B are past tense.
RULE 2: If the absolute timeframe (when they occur in relation to now) of events is in the future, A is past tense, B is non-past.
There are several uses of the word 'when', but in essence, they all relate to some time reference. Einstein famously said "time is relative' (or at least something pretty close to it) and how many of us understand relative time in a gravitationally constant universe? Thought so. Me neither.
Well, it'll be no surprise that 時, one of the nouns used to indicate time in Japanese, requres an understanding of 'the perceived sequence of events in relative time frame'. WTF?
To be fair, some of this is easy. Kind of. Take these sentences:
1. When I was a child...
2 When I go to Japan...
3 When I read that book...
4. When I win the lottery...
If I ask, which are past tense and which are non-past, I'm sure you'll work it out. I'm sure you've even already menatally worked out which conjugations to do. Hands up who got (1) = past, (2) = non-past, (3) = past and (4) = non-past? Hold that thought for a moment whilst we expand this a little.
2. When I go to Japan I want to eat basashi.
I think you'll agree that the perceived sequence of events is (A) go to Japan (B) eat basashi. The action A has to be completed before action B can occur. In this timeframe, A occurs in the past relative to B. So let's try to translate this puppy.
Jenglish: [Japan][went][when][basashi][eat + want]
日本語： 日本に行った時、馬刺しを食べたい。
Notice how 'to go' is in the past tense? Because it happens before the second bit. Contrast with:
日本語： 日本に行った時、馬刺しを食べた。
Jenglish: [Japan][go][when][basashi][ate]
English: When I went to Japan I ate basashi.
So, if A occurs before B, A is plain past. If events are in the past, B is past tense; if events are in the future, B is non-past tense. Got it? That's the easy bit.
Things go a bit Pete Tong from here on in. But that's another post.
matane.
RULE 1: If the absolute timeframe (when they occur in relation to now) of events is in the past, both A and B are past tense.
RULE 2: If the absolute timeframe (when they occur in relation to now) of events is in the future, A is past tense, B is non-past.
Comments:
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When I go to Japan I want to eat basashi.
日本に行った時、馬刺しを食べたい。
Yes, it's gramatically ok. But,
日本へ行ったら、馬刺しを食べたい。 sounds more natural.
It's almost equivalent,
If I go to Japan, I want to eat basashi.
As you explained, 'go to Japan'-(A) is a condition of 'to eat basashi'-(B), so action(A) has to occur before action(B) happens.
In this sentence, 'I want to eat basashi' is the main point which you want to say, so your mind has already been in Japan when you say this!
So the conditional clause, 'When I go to Japan' or 'If I go to Japan' is translated like the past tense,
'日本に行った時' or '日本に行ったら'.
In fact, I hadn't noticed such 'when' mixing exists in Japanese until you pointed.
On the other hand, it's not so easy for me to understand this kind of 'when' stuff in English.
For example,
Dave said that he was from the UK.
デイブは、英国出身だと言った。
Dave IS from the UK, it is the permanent truth. So, the sample sentense is translated '英国出身だ', not '英国出身だった'. It's like a translation of;
Dave said that he is from the UK.
But it's not correct, right?
Another example,
a salesman said to a customer,
'Listen. It's the offer of a lifetime. You'll be glad you bought it.'
The customer has not bought it yet, but the salesman says as if the customer had bought it, or says on the basis that the customer bought it. So the past tense is used here.
This sample is quite similar to your 'When I go to Japan...'question, don't you think?
Hmm, hope my post doesn't make you confused...
日本に行った時、馬刺しを食べたい。
Yes, it's gramatically ok. But,
日本へ行ったら、馬刺しを食べたい。 sounds more natural.
It's almost equivalent,
If I go to Japan, I want to eat basashi.
As you explained, 'go to Japan'-(A) is a condition of 'to eat basashi'-(B), so action(A) has to occur before action(B) happens.
In this sentence, 'I want to eat basashi' is the main point which you want to say, so your mind has already been in Japan when you say this!
So the conditional clause, 'When I go to Japan' or 'If I go to Japan' is translated like the past tense,
'日本に行った時' or '日本に行ったら'.
In fact, I hadn't noticed such 'when' mixing exists in Japanese until you pointed.
On the other hand, it's not so easy for me to understand this kind of 'when' stuff in English.
For example,
Dave said that he was from the UK.
デイブは、英国出身だと言った。
Dave IS from the UK, it is the permanent truth. So, the sample sentense is translated '英国出身だ', not '英国出身だった'. It's like a translation of;
Dave said that he is from the UK.
But it's not correct, right?
Another example,
a salesman said to a customer,
'Listen. It's the offer of a lifetime. You'll be glad you bought it.'
The customer has not bought it yet, but the salesman says as if the customer had bought it, or says on the basis that the customer bought it. So the past tense is used here.
This sample is quite similar to your 'When I go to Japan...'question, don't you think?
Hmm, hope my post doesn't make you confused...
# posted by 
: 2:15 pm
: 2:15 pm
Yes. Absolutely. I think....
Both your example of the salesman and my attempt at Japanese are similar. They both require thinking along relative time. In the salesman example, he is telling the customer that 'in the future, he (the customer) will be glad he bought it'. Same with my sentences in Japanese.
As for the use of たら instead of 時, thanks. It makes sense as I have been taught that たらmeans 'if and when'.
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Both your example of the salesman and my attempt at Japanese are similar. They both require thinking along relative time. In the salesman example, he is telling the customer that 'in the future, he (the customer) will be glad he bought it'. Same with my sentences in Japanese.
As for the use of たら instead of 時, thanks. It makes sense as I have been taught that たらmeans 'if and when'.
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